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	<title>Comments on: Serious journalism&#8217;s broccoli complex</title>
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		<title>By: Kieron Shaw</title>
		<link>http://www.completetosh.com/weblog/2008/03/29/serious-us-journalisms-broccoli-complex/comment-page-1/#comment-19791</link>
		<dc:creator>Kieron Shaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2008 19:14:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.completetosh.com/weblog/2008/03/29/serious-us-journalisms-broccoli-complex/#comment-19791</guid>
		<description>This is very interesting, Neil. But surely it&#039;s just a matter of patience: We&#039;re all trying to work out what&#039;s the right balance in this heavily publicised brave new world of democratic content creation? Eventually we&#039;ll find our way there.

I&#039;ve actually come across your blog because I&#039;m writing a piece of research around how  organisations are handling  this issue in their communication with staff/media/public – but especially their internal communication with employees. So far the answer, as you might expect, is &quot;not very dynamically&quot;. At one end of the scale, the lumbering corporation sticks to its stolid corporate prose for the most part, engaging no audience. Or the hip n happening dot.commers go the civic journalism route and end up with something unreadable and that pisses the top brass off because it just looks like time-wasting from their employees. 

The problem is that, most of the time, most organisations are trying to employ an unhappy hybrid of the two – effectively trying to send out internal announcements on the quarterly results but in a &quot;bloggy&quot; way that will &quot;play with the kids&quot;. As with your complaints here, it ends up being just transparently try-hard, like a dad dancing at a wedding... and pleases no-one.

So rest assured it doesn&#039;t just happen in the national/local press. It happens in the way these technologies are adapted by big and small companies, advertisers, marketers, PR people, etc in all their efforts at content creation too. Anything &quot;old school&quot; is seen as behind the times – but often a pleasant, quaint and improving format. Anything user-generated is seen as &quot;cool&quot; and &quot;the future&quot;... but treated as a bit of a loose cannon (with looser views on structure and syntax). 

These corporates and consultants would be less lucid than you and would refer to it as an &quot;as yet underappreciated paradigm shift in the nature of interactive communication&quot;, but the point is much the same – we&#039;re all trying to work out what&#039;s the right way to decant the good stuff from a suddenly overflowing pot of opinion. We&#039;ll get there. Patience patience.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is very interesting, Neil. But surely it&#8217;s just a matter of patience: We&#8217;re all trying to work out what&#8217;s the right balance in this heavily publicised brave new world of democratic content creation? Eventually we&#8217;ll find our way there.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve actually come across your blog because I&#8217;m writing a piece of research around how  organisations are handling  this issue in their communication with staff/media/public – but especially their internal communication with employees. So far the answer, as you might expect, is &#8220;not very dynamically&#8221;. At one end of the scale, the lumbering corporation sticks to its stolid corporate prose for the most part, engaging no audience. Or the hip n happening dot.commers go the civic journalism route and end up with something unreadable and that pisses the top brass off because it just looks like time-wasting from their employees. </p>
<p>The problem is that, most of the time, most organisations are trying to employ an unhappy hybrid of the two – effectively trying to send out internal announcements on the quarterly results but in a &#8220;bloggy&#8221; way that will &#8220;play with the kids&#8221;. As with your complaints here, it ends up being just transparently try-hard, like a dad dancing at a wedding&#8230; and pleases no-one.</p>
<p>So rest assured it doesn&#8217;t just happen in the national/local press. It happens in the way these technologies are adapted by big and small companies, advertisers, marketers, PR people, etc in all their efforts at content creation too. Anything &#8220;old school&#8221; is seen as behind the times – but often a pleasant, quaint and improving format. Anything user-generated is seen as &#8220;cool&#8221; and &#8220;the future&#8221;&#8230; but treated as a bit of a loose cannon (with looser views on structure and syntax). </p>
<p>These corporates and consultants would be less lucid than you and would refer to it as an &#8220;as yet underappreciated paradigm shift in the nature of interactive communication&#8221;, but the point is much the same – we&#8217;re all trying to work out what&#8217;s the right way to decant the good stuff from a suddenly overflowing pot of opinion. We&#8217;ll get there. Patience patience.</p>
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		<title>By: links for 2008-04-15 &#171; Mediating Conflict</title>
		<link>http://www.completetosh.com/weblog/2008/03/29/serious-us-journalisms-broccoli-complex/comment-page-1/#comment-19362</link>
		<dc:creator>links for 2008-04-15 &#171; Mediating Conflict</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Apr 2008 12:37:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.completetosh.com/weblog/2008/03/29/serious-us-journalisms-broccoli-complex/#comment-19362</guid>
		<description>[...] Journalism and Broccoli Neil Mcintosh on the role of serious journalism (tags: journalism Guardian) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Journalism and Broccoli Neil Mcintosh on the role of serious journalism (tags: journalism Guardian) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Englishman in New York &#187; Thoughts on US News</title>
		<link>http://www.completetosh.com/weblog/2008/03/29/serious-us-journalisms-broccoli-complex/comment-page-1/#comment-19006</link>
		<dc:creator>Englishman in New York &#187; Thoughts on US News</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 13:31:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.completetosh.com/weblog/2008/03/29/serious-us-journalisms-broccoli-complex/#comment-19006</guid>
		<description>[...] what Neil Mcintosh, head of editorial development for guardian.co.uk, had to say about US newspapers:  Taking a copy [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] what Neil Mcintosh, head of editorial development for guardian.co.uk, had to say about US newspapers:  Taking a copy [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Englishman in New York &#187; UK Views on US News</title>
		<link>http://www.completetosh.com/weblog/2008/03/29/serious-us-journalisms-broccoli-complex/comment-page-1/#comment-18964</link>
		<dc:creator>Englishman in New York &#187; UK Views on US News</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Apr 2008 14:32:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.completetosh.com/weblog/2008/03/29/serious-us-journalisms-broccoli-complex/#comment-18964</guid>
		<description>[...] Neil Mcintosh, head of editorial development for guardian.co.uk, thinks part of the reason US newspapers are failing is because they haven&#8217;t mastered the art of making news more palatable for readers. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Neil Mcintosh, head of editorial development for guardian.co.uk, thinks part of the reason US newspapers are failing is because they haven&#8217;t mastered the art of making news more palatable for readers. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: pj white</title>
		<link>http://www.completetosh.com/weblog/2008/03/29/serious-us-journalisms-broccoli-complex/comment-page-1/#comment-18694</link>
		<dc:creator>pj white</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 07:08:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.completetosh.com/weblog/2008/03/29/serious-us-journalisms-broccoli-complex/#comment-18694</guid>
		<description>Neil, you have to be clear what business you are in. Delivering quality editorial to readers is one thing. Delivering readerships to advertisers is another. They are not unconnected. But they are different. Concentrate on the second, &amp; your costs, margins and the rest of it can show that it really isn&#039;t worth spending too much on proper journalism. (As a glance around the market will also tell you.)

I think the burning question is not - what do readers want from their news? It is something more like - given that readers have a resistance to paying for news, how can it be funded?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Neil, you have to be clear what business you are in. Delivering quality editorial to readers is one thing. Delivering readerships to advertisers is another. They are not unconnected. But they are different. Concentrate on the second, &amp; your costs, margins and the rest of it can show that it really isn&#8217;t worth spending too much on proper journalism. (As a glance around the market will also tell you.)</p>
<p>I think the burning question is not &#8211; what do readers want from their news? It is something more like &#8211; given that readers have a resistance to paying for news, how can it be funded?</p>
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		<title>By: Neil McIntosh</title>
		<link>http://www.completetosh.com/weblog/2008/03/29/serious-us-journalisms-broccoli-complex/comment-page-1/#comment-18668</link>
		<dc:creator>Neil McIntosh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 18:00:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.completetosh.com/weblog/2008/03/29/serious-us-journalisms-broccoli-complex/#comment-18668</guid>
		<description>PJ, you old troll! What are you doing here? My point is that some US print editors, clearly, don&#039;t know what readers want. They *think* they know, but are wrong, which is why readers are turning their backs on what they offer. Thus I don&#039;t think it a bad idea - in the context of a semi academic conference - to suggest the first step in any research effort should be to ask readers what they&#039;re looking for. But invest in &quot;proper&quot; journalism? Absolutely. Let&#039;s just make sure someone actually reads it, no? Or is that just a little gauche for your taste?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PJ, you old troll! What are you doing here? My point is that some US print editors, clearly, don&#8217;t know what readers want. They *think* they know, but are wrong, which is why readers are turning their backs on what they offer. Thus I don&#8217;t think it a bad idea &#8211; in the context of a semi academic conference &#8211; to suggest the first step in any research effort should be to ask readers what they&#8217;re looking for. But invest in &#8220;proper&#8221; journalism? Absolutely. Let&#8217;s just make sure someone actually reads it, no? Or is that just a little gauche for your taste?</p>
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		<title>By: Charlie Beckett</title>
		<link>http://www.completetosh.com/weblog/2008/03/29/serious-us-journalisms-broccoli-complex/comment-page-1/#comment-18665</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie Beckett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 16:09:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.completetosh.com/weblog/2008/03/29/serious-us-journalisms-broccoli-complex/#comment-18665</guid>
		<description>Hi Neil,
It&#039;s what Adrian Monck calls the Chardonnay syndrome. When online journalistis create new products they produce what they want to read instead of thinking about what the public want. So we get the journalistic equivalent of Pinot Noir when the people want Chardonnay. It doesn&#039;t mean you can&#039;t make fine wines but don&#039;t expect them to dominate the market,
cheers
Charlie</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Neil,<br />
It&#8217;s what Adrian Monck calls the Chardonnay syndrome. When online journalistis create new products they produce what they want to read instead of thinking about what the public want. So we get the journalistic equivalent of Pinot Noir when the people want Chardonnay. It doesn&#8217;t mean you can&#8217;t make fine wines but don&#8217;t expect them to dominate the market,<br />
cheers<br />
Charlie</p>
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		<title>By: pj white</title>
		<link>http://www.completetosh.com/weblog/2008/03/29/serious-us-journalisms-broccoli-complex/comment-page-1/#comment-18661</link>
		<dc:creator>pj white</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 12:53:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.completetosh.com/weblog/2008/03/29/serious-us-journalisms-broccoli-complex/#comment-18661</guid>
		<description>Isn&#039;t knowing what readers want what editors are for? By all means send heads of editorial development to sit in the sunshine and have the feeble idea of asking non-readers what they want from their news. But it might be better to provide more resources for proper journalism. If you&#039;ve forgotten what that is, ask around when you get home. Nick Davies still remembers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn&#8217;t knowing what readers want what editors are for? By all means send heads of editorial development to sit in the sunshine and have the feeble idea of asking non-readers what they want from their news. But it might be better to provide more resources for proper journalism. If you&#8217;ve forgotten what that is, ask around when you get home. Nick Davies still remembers.</p>
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		<title>By: Nanny-Journalism is the mother of all news business problems &#171; The Future of News</title>
		<link>http://www.completetosh.com/weblog/2008/03/29/serious-us-journalisms-broccoli-complex/comment-page-1/#comment-18649</link>
		<dc:creator>Nanny-Journalism is the mother of all news business problems &#171; The Future of News</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 00:24:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.completetosh.com/weblog/2008/03/29/serious-us-journalisms-broccoli-complex/#comment-18649</guid>
		<description>[...] outsiders notice problems better than those too close to a situation, as did British journalist Neil McIntosh when he attended the Media Re:Public conference at USC&#8217;s Annenberg School. He noticed that [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] outsiders notice problems better than those too close to a situation, as did British journalist Neil McIntosh when he attended the Media Re:Public conference at USC&#8217;s Annenberg School. He noticed that [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Neil McIntosh</title>
		<link>http://www.completetosh.com/weblog/2008/03/29/serious-us-journalisms-broccoli-complex/comment-page-1/#comment-18620</link>
		<dc:creator>Neil McIntosh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Mar 2008 23:58:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.completetosh.com/weblog/2008/03/29/serious-us-journalisms-broccoli-complex/#comment-18620</guid>
		<description>Bill - people who consume news. Or, perhaps more importantly, those who don&#039;t. I&#039;m not sure there&#039;s much understanding of changing needs - or, as the LA Times perhaps shows - even if there is understanding, there&#039;s no move to act on it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill &#8211; people who consume news. Or, perhaps more importantly, those who don&#8217;t. I&#8217;m not sure there&#8217;s much understanding of changing needs &#8211; or, as the LA Times perhaps shows &#8211; even if there is understanding, there&#8217;s no move to act on it.</p>
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